Why did I crash? [Archive] (2024)

bigmess

7th November 2002, 23:43

NoMoreMiata

7th November 2002, 23:45

NoBlindSpot

7th November 2002, 23:56

kdeleon

7th November 2002, 23:59

munque

8th November 2002, 00:12

From my motorcyle days, I learned that the initial onset of a light rain makes for the slickest roads, short of ice or wet leaves. All that oil dripped from cars lifts off the asphalt and takes a while to wash away.

Based on owner comments, some of the miata OEM tires had tremendously different stick factors, (i.e, they sucked) in the rain too.

bigmess

8th November 2002, 00:13

Dan&Zoomy

8th November 2002, 00:17

Icehawk

8th November 2002, 00:18

Don

8th November 2002, 00:29

4 cheap mismatched tires that you can "predictably slide" (when dry?) and driving in the wet above the speed rated for the corner, put you very near the "edge" of disaster - Throw in one more tiny variable of any kind, and . . . well, you get the picture. A sudden overcorrection, leaves, gravel, oil, or a moments distraction, and "boom."

The car is so much fun, I frequently "overdrive" my own a bit, and over the years I've found great tires can be an excellent form of "insurance." I buy the best, and when they're worn enough that they scare me just one time in the wet, I replace them, no matter what the wear indicators may say.

Brand new cheap tires may be marginal in the wet - 1/3rd worn ones can be downright scary.

I figure I can keep it right side up just fine by myself in the dry, but in the rain, I'll buy all the extra help I can find.

Don

Kadera

8th November 2002, 00:44

Um, yeah-- I agree with Don. And I think you answered your own question as to why you lost control.

Wet roads, plus cheap, 1/3 worn, mismatched tires = Disaster waiting to happen.

I'm glad you're okay though. That's the important thing.

-Kadera

Robbi Laurenson

8th November 2002, 00:45

I spun on a fairly new set of T1-S at what I thought was a reasonable speed. Next thing I know I am doing a 180 in the middle of the turn. I put both feet in and stopped the car before I hit the canyon wall.

From that day on I have had a tremendous respect for the wet. Some people thing it's fun, and sure, in a parking lot I'm sure it is. On the street it's treacherous.

My WRX is even more skittish in the wet on the same road, albeit with OEM M+S tires.

So don't sell the Miata down the river just yet is all I'm saying. :)

MakGT

8th November 2002, 00:48

I have the S-03s and SP9000 (turned in the 9000 for teh S-03) to replace the tires that came with the car. The S308 by Yoko. I can tell you the difference in rain traction. The S-03 and 9000 just girp grip grip and the S305 just plow.

Wet driving does become tricky with mismatch tires. First day I got my 90 LExus, I almost spun out at 25mph on a curve that I take easily in the wet with the Miata at 45. Funny thing is that the tires that were on ti were about half worn, but all 4 tires are different brand. It was so surprised that I didnt know how to correct it. Thank god for FWD and I just plowed straight. I immediately went in the shop and got 2 Sumitomo SRIXON4. It got better until the next rain storm. I had the new tires in teh rear, i was taking another curve close to the speed that I take witht he Miata. Man I was about 3 ft from the outside fence as I was sliding out. I was afraid to do anything in it because I was afraid to crash. 20 min after that, went to the shop and replaced the 2 fronts too. And after that, I gave the car to my aunt........

Cheap tires can cause accident...

bigmess

8th November 2002, 00:49

Fletcher

8th November 2002, 00:55

You hung the tail out opposite sides, what, three times?

Have you heard of the term "over-correction" ?

It takes an experienced driver to know when to stop counter-steering... its too late when the car's pointing straight ahead again... thats how you fish-tail.

Take that driver school...

btw, its got nothing to do with the Miata's light weight, it would have happened in any rear-wheel drive, well balanced car...

Sorry,

Fletch.

melweaverm897

8th November 2002, 00:56

Gene-M

8th November 2002, 01:09

I spun out my Austin Healey by hitting a patch of wet leaves while weaving through some twisties late one night. In a manner typical of myself, I had chosen the wrong time to experiment with my car's cornering abilities and once I hit those leaves it was like black ice; there was no correcting it. I did a 360 and was stopped by a stone wall and a telephone pole. It was nice having a Dad with his own body shop, since I did a lot of damage. ;)

[ 08. November 2002, 10:44: Message edited by: Gene-M ]

kdeleon

8th November 2002, 01:12

Originally posted by bigmess:
Icehawk, thanks. Foot off the gas, clutch pedal in. Never practiced keeping gas on, but 'pendulum' is kinda what it did. Would that effect be more pronounced because of the 50/50 weight distribution than on a normal front heavy car?as icehawk said, that isn't actually the right thing to do and regardless of what car you drive, even FWD, will exhibit that. you're actually one step away from having saved it, and that is your right foot firmly on the brake pedal.

anyway, hope you get a miata replacement soon and hopefully with new and matched tires ;) .

as far as spinout stories on the rain. I did once. It was raining hard and i always enjoyed driving in the rain so i just had to go out and play. Well, there's this one corner where i just put too much throttle. I did both feet in the car simply stopped after doing 180. i still enjoy driving in the wet, in fact i find track events on the rain the most fun and challenging!

[ 08. November 2002, 00:20: Message edited by: kdeleon ]

paulmx5

8th November 2002, 02:18

glad to hear you're okay. Sounds like you might have touched a painted line too maybe??

It is a strange feeling to steer with the throttle, but once you get used to it, it's great fun. Not the most instinctive thing to do though.

driver school + personal experimentation (empty parking lot, auto cross)

Paul

MakGT

8th November 2002, 03:20

RonB

8th November 2002, 05:41

Personally, I just chicken. Can't afford a moment's fun risking totalling the car. Been there, done that (Porsche, over-correction, slight rain, lamp-post in 3 pieces and car banana'd) and injured passenger too. So rain = driving at 50%.

Plus our roads (if so one can call them) are glossy-smooth worn with potholes, bumps and lumps, poorly filled in works trenches, and nearly all 50mph+ roads have no armco at all... just welcoming lamp-posts and trees...

Can't do it!

Ron

Eunos91

8th November 2002, 06:27

El Fez

8th November 2002, 07:56

Right after I bought my '94 I was entering a freeway in San Diego (long sweeper, 270 degree loop) after a light rain and suddenly found myself doing a 180 into the ice plant on the side of the road. Luckily there was enough space to the car behind me that he slowed down. Managed to drive off of the little curb and get on down the road a little more carefully. Verdict? mismatched tires, newly slick road, idiot light beaming from behind the wheel. Glad you're still around to tell the tale.

Fez

Eunos91

8th November 2002, 08:05

Skyler (Austin, Texas) 91 White

8th November 2002, 08:25

One point that no seems to have mentioned is that this happened in Minnesota in November.

You need winter tires. Not snow tires, but winter tires. There are rubber compounds that stick better in the colder temperatures. Regular tires for summer time don't stick very well at all when the temperatures get in the 40's or lower.

Do yourself a favor if you live where it gets cold and buy some winter tires.

Foureagles

8th November 2002, 08:35

B.M.

Everyone knows that I'm a GREAT driver :rolleyes: , and I've had several "offs" in wet, dry, ice, snow, and, like Gene-M, on leaves. These have been performed with FWD, RWD, 4WD & AWD, on 2 wheels & 4, belt & skis, inboard, outboard, crampons, snowshoes, and roller skates. I've never spun an aircraft because I haven't yet been allowed to operate one. In every case, the first thing to begin slipping was probably my concentration.
"Both feet in" is fine conservative advice, but up to a certain subtle point, steady, or gently adjusted and well coordinated throttle & steering inputs will save most all slides where entry speed isn't way over the top. It takes a lot of practice, probably some innate skill, and most of all, judgement (gotta get me some of that some day). Overcorrection, or "pendulum" is what I call getting my ass ahead of my brain.
Glad you made it through this one. Cheers, and early recovery.

{{{{

OceanRagtop

8th November 2002, 08:41

One point that no seems to have mentioned is that this happened in Minnesota in November.Tennessee (TN), I think. Still, all the basics can add up sharply to loss of traction: hit a slick spot, lift off the gas, turn too much, not being smooth, worn tires, not sticky tires ... you name it. Hard to see which combination caused it. We've all been there, it's just that in the light, RWD Miata it can be interesting when traction is lost. I've come loose twice, once overcorrecting and once nicely adjusting. If done right, it's amazingly balanced and safe. Good reason to join up with a quality driving school, preferably an all-Miata one.

----------------------------------------------
My 96M, Li'l Bit (http://miata.cardomain.com/id/oceanragtop) . Keep the shiny side up.
Redwood Coast Miata Club (http://rcmiataclub.tripod.com)

[ 08. November 2002, 07:55: Message edited by: OceanRagtop ]

Eunos91

8th November 2002, 08:54

Icehawk

8th November 2002, 09:16

Seriously this is a RWD car, before you are past 90deg you NEED to keep your foot in it if you want to save the car... Using the brakes is NOT going to help you as that will shift the weight to the front tires and off the rear which are already unloaded. Combining a spin with lift throttle oversteer is not a good idea! The key is to get weight on the slipping tires. This is why "left foot braking" is used to curb understeer. Of course, once you are past 90deg there is no chance of saving it and you should just floor the brakes in hope of stopping on the pavement.

And yes, keeping your foot in it is exactly the opposite of what our monkey brain wants to do - practice will enable you to do it.

I have spun @ 85mph in the rain in my OTM, a '99 Si. I am always careful but on that day... BIG reminder why I am extra careful in the wet!

Oh, and please get a nice set of matched tires :D .

Mark Leinhos

8th November 2002, 09:21

It's funny but the only time I've ever spun was in the dry. I'm pretty sure I was just driving faster than the tires would allow. I pat myself on the back for doing such a good job of controlling the spin and receiving no damage... and then kick myself in the ass for driving too fast.

In wet weather I always drive like a little old lady because spin correction is so much harder in the wet, although what really scares me is the reduced braking traction. :eek:

whitemiata

8th November 2002, 09:40

bigmess,

About 4 months back, driving to a party... I was following another car. They stopped and the driver came up to my window and said something like "we're almost there. I just thought I'd let you know that there are 3 90 degree curves coming up that are incredibly slick, be careful"

What an idiot! Like I'd need that warning.

Well I made it through 2 of the curves having a blast steering with the tail and thinking "see! I know what I'm doing!"

The third curve kicked my a$$... slid way more than expected, and after that it felt like I was on ice... I was going maybe 20 mph tops yet the car managed to spin at least 4 times.

No damage to the bodywork but significant damage to the ego. I'll never be able to look at the guy with a straight face again :)

At any rate...

Mismatched tires are a bad sign. I tend to think that someone who would put mismatched tires on a Miata would also be likely to forego the expense of an alignment.

A poorly aligned car, any car, can be a huge problem in the wet. Add lightweight and RWD and htere's your recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, for all I know the tires could be ok, and the car could be perfectly aligned.

Unfortunatelly when you lose it in the wet... and pass that adherence treshold, it's pretty hard to regain it (compared to in the dry)... so any number of things could have happened that started your initial loss of control, and the wet did the rest.

Alessandro

pzb4

8th November 2002, 09:42

===Marc

8th November 2002, 09:53

Glad you survived!

Having only Miata experience since August, I hesitate to speculate. However...

As purchased, my new child had a set of Cooper tires, very close to the wear indicators. Also, the steering wheel was not exactly centered (while driving straight. No, it is not in itself indicative of alignment problems but it sure made my suspicion bump itch). So, my first impression of the Miata was that it was a ball to drive in the dry and damn scary in the wet. Any application of power in the wet sent the rear end askew. Yeeha and countersteer in anything over a crawl. :eek:

After having quite enough of leaving her home on wet days, I visited my friendly local tire shoppe and acquired both a new set of skins (SP8000's) and a full 4wheel alignment. Completely different car now. No tendency to break loose unless I demand it (and it must be an authoritative demand at that). And is she sticky? Wholly Mackerel, sometimes I fear I may black out due to all the blood rushing to one side of my head. ;) Wet traction is now confidence inspiring, although I'm still exploring that area tenderly...

You had a few slippery factors sneak up on you, go get another Miata and spend the extra dollars on tires and alignment. Driving school? Yeah, I need it myself.

===Marc

theosan

8th November 2002, 14:44

I hear the miata was a great handling car, so I bought one and figured that I can do anything. :O

Just finished washing the car on a bright sunny day, decided to drive around the block to get the water of before I start to towel dry it.

The first turn I made, right on my street (maximum maybe I was going 20 - 25 mph), the car went into a spin, barely missing the neigbors cars...scary stuff, felt like it went on forever.

Like I said, I just bought the car and I never payed close attention to the tires. On closer exermination I find that the tires are rock hard (I can barely poke it with a nail, almost like plastic) that combined with water all over them :ohno:

Even though it's not the cars fault, that experience completely killed my confidence even on dry roads I drive like a grampa now.

Renzoku

8th November 2002, 14:51

When you point the car in the direction you want to go, keep the steering straight. The last time I slid out on the wet [40-or-so mph, 90 degree turn with an open cul-de-sac stuck on it like a tumor] I went clutch in, hit neutral, slid the nose around where I wanted it to be [using brakes, not gas] and let the car 'roll' into place. I believe I stopped within 4 or 5 feet of the curb [the cul-de-sac is about 30 or 40 feet across]

Can anyone give me pointers as to how to stop in a shorter distance while sliding? I have four Yokohama Avid H4s [decent wet traction at low speeds, but turning traction gets extremely poor with nothing at all in the trunk] for rubber and I'm going to be picking up a set of good snow tires and a couple 75lb. sandbags from Home Depot soon.

Miyagi

8th November 2002, 15:08

Originally posted by Renzoku:
When you point the car in the direction you want to go, keep the steering straight. The last time I slid out on the wet [40-or-so mph, 90 degree turn with an open cul-de-sac stuck on it like a tumor] I went clutch in, hit neutral, slid the nose around where I wanted it to be [using brakes, not gas] and let the car 'roll' into place. I believe I stopped within 4 or 5 feet of the curb [the cul-de-sac is about 30 or 40 feet across]

Can anyone give me pointers as to how to stop in a shorter distance while sliding? I have four Yokohama Avid H4s [decent wet traction at low speeds, but turning traction gets extremely poor with nothing at all in the trunk] for rubber and I'm going to be picking up a set of good snow tires and a couple 75lb. sandbags from Home Depot soon.You need better tires. My previous set were avid h 4's and were better than th eno name mismatch i had. Those are good, but S03's make it feel like dry pavement! i would have never belived it until i got the better tires myself.

[ 08. November 2002, 14:09: Message edited by: Miyagi ]

kdeleon

8th November 2002, 15:15

one thing that i like to add here is that wet driving is different from driving on the dry. I think the most important is driving with very late apexes. This makes sure that the only reason you'll get your rearend out is due to power oversteer. Power oversteers are easy to correct and it follows your line of thinking, that is lift off the throttle. If you slide due to just cornering force (on the wet) then 95% of the time you won't be able to save it simply because there's really not much grip out there to counter that momentum.

btw, watch out for my Falken Azenis review on the rain :) !

[ 08. November 2002, 14:16: Message edited by: kdeleon ]

obcsed

8th November 2002, 15:57

Nebber mind. :O

[ 08. November 2002, 14:58: Message edited by: Peg (obcsed) ]

Ed - MiataMeister

8th November 2002, 16:07

Don and IceHawk are both correct.

You wrecked your car because of a number of things.

1. The Miata has nearly a perfect front rear bias. The loss of traction on the rear means that you need to shift weight to the rear of the car. To do that, ACCELERATE slightly.

2. You overcorrected when you did loose traction. This is typical of drivers that can't feel the ever so slight change in the balance of the car as you come near centering. No, I'm not so good a driver as to think even I can feel this all the time - just on rare occasions.

3. The mismatched tires are a large contributor. You didn't mention which tires were on which ends (or sides) but that contributed to the loss of traction. With different tires they respond differently to the transfer of weight and the road surface differently.

4. It was raining. When I bought my tires I looked for reviews that put the tire as a great performer in the wet. I put on Dunlop Sport A2's. Yes, they're a little noisy in the twisties. No, they're not a great performance tire. Yes, they're rated for 50K miles and won't last anywhere near that for me. Yes, they were inexpensive (VERY inexpensive - out the door mounted, balanced, everything for under $240). But they are predictable in the wet. I also slow down GREATLY in the wet. ESPECIALLY in the twisties. I've put enough cars into guardrails and off the road in the wet when I was just driving down the interstate. I'm willing to sacrifice great dry performance for better performance in the wet.

5. You mentioned not having taken any driving schools. Take one. It wouldn't have necessarily prevented the spin but it might have given you the presence of mind to realize that if you can't correct the spin and end up fishtailing you should just try to get the car stopped. I sometimes lose the rear if I overdrive in autocrossing. I try to correct the oversteer once, maybe twice and if I can't I STOP. I'm just at risk for hitting cones and sliding in the grass - I'd probably try to stop a little faster if I was on a mountain road in the wet.

Sorry to hear of your accident - hope you get it all fixed or replaced soon to enjoy driving again!

M M M M M My Miata

8th November 2002, 19:37

Originally posted by bigmess:
...I'm not pushing it, in 5th, going maybe 45 in an area of curves marked 40, but the particular curve I'm in is just a gentle right hander I've taken over 50 times in all kinds of weather. All of a sudden...Last week, I was taking my favorite corner on my way home from work. I was not pushing it. I have taken this particular corner at least 10 mph faster. All the sudden the rear completely breaks loose on dry pavement. I had no problem bringing it back in, but I was really surprised. 5 miles later I'm pulling over with a very flat rear tire. I had picked up a road hazard, the tire must not have been completely inflated in the corner, and I had much less cornering capacity than normal. You never know...

[ 08. November 2002, 18:39: Message edited by: M M M M M My Miata ]

Dow Jones

9th November 2002, 21:42

Oil on the road!

I was in Mexico some years back, sitting 3rd at a left hand turn to go up a significant hill. A truck with an open oil drum on the back splashed out maybe a quart or two onto the dry road. I watched as the two cars ahead of me drove thru the oil, lost traction on the hill and wound up a tangled mess near the bottom. It was unbelievable to see! :ohno: :confused:

I made a u-turn! :D

DJ

MGnFIcnT

10th November 2002, 01:52

rnbradford

10th November 2002, 08:21

A lot of good advice here. Naturally one would prefer to avoid the spin in the first place. With 40 responses so far on this thread though I am surprised not to see more mention of where one should be looking. The overcorrection can often be avoided by simply looking where you want the car to go. The fact that the last skid was the fourth and resulted from previous overcorrections would seem to indicate that this was salvagable early-on. Our drivers education teachers taught us all to "turn in the direction of the skid," but they usually failed to tell us how far to turn. The answer is more or less automatic if you are looking far down the road or around the corner where you want to go.

Richard

weekapamiata

10th November 2002, 12:13

bigmess

10th November 2002, 13:48

Virtos

11th November 2002, 15:15

Bill_Rockoff

11th November 2002, 16:01

I don't mean to be rude, but I will come right to the point: The problem isn't "the Miata." The problem was partly your choice in tires, partly your judgement as far as what's an appropriate speed, and partly your driving technique.

You can buy any car you like. If you put mismatched tires of poor quality on it, drive it too fast in the rain, and then fail to respond properly when you get into trouble, you'll wreck that car too. You can keep blaming each car each time and change to something different, and maybe the next crash will be different (maybe next time you'll slide straight off the outside of the turn with the steering wheel cranked around, asking "Why won't this dang thing TURN?") But unless you accept your responsibility for 1) taking to the street in a poorly-equipped car, 2) driving too fast for conditions (yes, you were, otherwise you wouldn't have slid) and 3) failing to recover from the situation you got yourself into, you'll crash the next one, too. And the car after that. And the car after that.

In the end, the answer to your original question "Why did I crash?" is really a few different answers to a few different questions.

- "Why did my car start to go out of control to begin with?" (Because you drove too fast for conditions.)

- "Why was that too fast for conditions, when I've driven other cars that fast in the rain before?" (Part of it is the tires, which you've admitted were not the greatest and were mismatched as well.)

- "Once my car went out of control, why didn't I save it?" (Because you over-corrected, several times in a row. If it went back and forth several times, you had several chances to save it and you blew it each time. You did something wrong.)

You can claim it was totally "the car's fault" and buy something else. If that's the solution you choose, I have two recommendations. 1) Buy a front-wheel-drive Swedish car. Front-drive cars generally slide the front wheels and plow off the road front-end first, instead of spinning. Saabs and Volvos are generally very safe cars to crash in. 2) Don't drive near my house. That way, when you crash the next car, you won't cross the center line and hit me.

Or, you can learn from this experience, realize you have a definte shortcoming in your driving technique, and learn to be a better driver. This doesn't require you to develop "professional driving skills" or keep absolutely new tires on the car at all times. You could make huge strides in the right direction by learning when to slow down a bit. This is far more important than "learning to control a car on the edge of traction as if you're Michael Schumacher." Although I have to say Schuey probably wouldn't have been in 5th gear at 45 mph in a corner.)

If you decide to take responsibility for this incident, rather than blaming the car, I'd recommend another Miata, or something similarly responsive and rear-wheel drive, with decent tires installed as a matched set of four. Miatas are great cars for learning good driving technique because you can feel what's going on when you do something right (or wrong.) They really "talk" to you. It's easier to understand what they're saying when you have four identical, predictable tires on them.

I did a track day once in the rain. My instructor told me he thought I had excellent car control. I don't think this was exactly a compliment... It's like being told you're really good at talking your way out of bar fights. It's a good skill to have, but if you have a chance to display that skill, it's a sure sign that you've already made a mistake.

Good drivers aren't the guys who can recover from unexpected slides on the road - good drivers are the ones who don't HAVE unexpected slides on the road.

Good luck.

- Bill

[ 12. November 2002, 09:21: Message edited by: Bill_Rockoff ]

Todd Barney

11th November 2002, 16:04

Early when the Miata came out, at least one automotive writer noted that the balanced feel of the Miata made many drivers feel they were much better than they really are...

I believe it. The Miata can lull you into a false sense of security. Under perfect conditions, it's limits are so much higher than 99% of what you'll ever drive, that it invites you to drive at higher limits without realizing it.

It took two near misses for me years ago before I finally wised up. Doesn't take "professional" driving skills. It does take an awareness that the Miata is a little bit different kind of car.

'Course, there's always the chance there was something wrong, mechanically. Say, a toe-out condition, which can bite you when you least expect it with sudden oversteer. In lesser cars, an alignment is simply to make sure you don't wear your tires funny. In a Miata, it's an integral part of its performance setup.

Ah well. Your loss. :)

Todd & Miatoy & The Twin

Jeff J.

11th November 2002, 16:57

I have had many cars that were worse in the rain. 2 Mustangs were horrible. Miatas are very tire sensitive and the OEM tires that came on the early ones were POS on wet roads, actually downright dangerous. I nearly lost my 1990 on an exit ramp doing 5 miles under the posted speed limit in the rain.

Have Toyo T1S on the car now. Wet grip is good, but if the rear is starting to slide and I lift then the rear is coming around. Once that happens the proper procedure is clutch and brake in and hold on. Fastest way to stop in a spin is to spin around the smallest circle and that is hard brakes and no clutch. Trying to steer out of a situation where you are already too far gone to save it will result in disaster as you have learned.

I agree with what has been said here already. If you don't want another Miata then that is your choice and I would certainly respect that. But DO NOT blame what happened to you on the Miata. It was the cause of poorly maintained tires and driver error, nothing else.

MiniMe

11th November 2002, 18:55

Originally posted by bigmess:
I'd heard that Miatas were skittish in the wet and had experimented with panic stops and sharp steering input in the wet (in safe areas) to see if I could induce a spin. I couldn't.
I don't understand what happened. (1)Why it spun under mild cornering and (2)I was surprised that I couldn't recover it. Is it something to do with light weight? I'm not sure I want another Miata for my next car. Tell me your spin stories.One of the reasons miata's spin quickly is due to the short wheelbase. Just like BMW Z3's and Z3 coupes spin a lot quicker than say a 3 series sedan. The longer wheelbase makes it much more stable at the limit...however the lightness of the car helps with correcting a spin, you just have to make sure you don't overcorrect otherwise you will snap the other end out and spin the other way. :eek: This is what happened to you. Most of the time you can stay off the brakes and mdulate the throttle(slowly) in order to regain traction.

I spun in the rain once, but it was on a racetrack(heavy downpour), so I have an excuse. That was the only time I have ever spun.

I NEVER drive anywhere NEAR the limits of the tires when the roads are cold, wet, or icy. It makes for very unpredictable behavior. You could have hit any number of substances mixed with the water on the road. Dirt or other debris, antifreeze, oil, etc.

Mike

Gene-M

11th November 2002, 19:42

Bigmess, sorry you feel as you do. Maybe it's best if you just move on afer all. The Miata is clearly not the car for you, and I guess we are wasting our finger muscles trying to convince you otherwise. Whatever you choose, enjoy.

[ 11. November 2002, 18:47: Message edited by: Gene-M ]

ProstWest

11th November 2002, 19:47

pinto_gt

11th November 2002, 19:54

4am. streets empty. roads slightly wet from rain night before. 4 falkens. i pick up a friend who just bought a miata to show him how a "miata can really handle." (i'd been autox'ing all season). a crx pulls up at a light, all pimped out. i race it. we head into a gentle curve, and i shift into 2nd gear at 7000 rpm. NOT GOOD. i have never spun so fast in my life, 720 degrees. thankfully everyone including both cars were ok...

better judgement got the best of me. now i know! (don't go 10/10ths in rain, don't shift at redline on a curve, and most importantly don't show off!).

Dow Jones

11th November 2002, 23:50

Get back on the horse or sell it.

Horses sometimes do what they want, Miata's do what you tell them.

DJ

marcio

12th November 2002, 00:08

Ferguson

12th November 2002, 04:19

davekmd

12th November 2002, 09:43

I'm more than sure you've answered your own question regarding the spin out and subsequent crash. I don't mean to be harsh but take a step back and realize the situation.

11:15PM (not exactly great high performance driving time, as opposed to say 11:15AM in the morning).
Rain slicked road (not exactly great high performance driving weather and road conditions).
Road temp? (not said, but I'm gathering rather COLD, which doesn't generate optimum tire temps).
New to car (not exactly familiar with car and how it behaves).
Worn tires (not exactly a good recipe for hot footing curves 11:15 at night in cold, rainy weather).
Mismatched tires (? Toyos on the front maybe and brand X on the rear?)

If there was a recipe for disaster you couldn't find a better one. Get another Miata, outfit it with 'good' tires and a roll bar, lay off hipo driving in the rain at night (unless you can guarantee mistakes are simple slide outs) and otherwise enjoy the car and your life!

Dave K.

94-R

12th November 2002, 12:31

whitemiata

12th November 2002, 14:09

Bigmess,

While what many have been saying since your statements indicating you feel it was the car's fault, is probably true, I would like to apologize on behalf of miata owners for the timing of the comments.

The bottom line still remains that you were in a fairly serious accident, and I have little doubts that there are several vehicles out there that would have behaved differntly under these precise circ*mstances.

Had I not learned how to drive using my dad's BMW 3 series, I would definitelly have had my share of "stupid driver RWD spin in the wet" in a Miata. I had those in a BMW instead. Through luck only I always walked away from those shaken and shocked but with no marks on sheetmetal or skin. Like I said... LUCK.

The decision as to what car you should buy to replace your Miata, and specifically if it should be another miata or not is just yours... and I've seen enough idiots in Miatas around south florida not to worry that a redo of your accident would increase my insurance premium.

I feel your initial post was as well balanced and non-confrontational to deserve the polite informative answers you received. I also feel that as much as the accident was obviously your fault (unless true unpredictable mechanical failure occurs, or true unpredictable outside event [plane drops cow on your hood qualifies, deer runs out of woods doesn't]) EVERY accident can be easily identified as the driver's fault (or a driver in a multi-car accident)... anyway I was saying, even though it was your fault, you're human like the rest of us, and your frustration at the car is certainly understandable. I wish the replies to that would have been less heated than they were.

At any rate, I do have another thought for you, which you should feel free to apply to any vehicle you choose to replace your Miata with.

Don't drive IN THE RAIN at 45mph in 5th gear (scratch that... don't drive IN ANY CONDITION, at 45mph in 5th gear the possible benefits are way overpowered by the possible catastrophic negatives). I've done plenty of mountain driving in various vehicles and rarely if ever found 4th, let alone 5th. You always want to have both that tighter feel a lower gear gives you, and that higher response, not to mention the significantly stronger engine-braking.

If you decide that in your opinion it really was the car's fault, I would seriously recommend you steer clear of Miatas, MRSpyders, Z3s, BMW 3 series and most other sportyish RWD vehicles.

The perfect car doesn't exist. Just like a Miata is significantly better at pure handling in the dry than most things on the road, certainly there will be vehicles out there that would have possibly been better at avoiding the accident you were in, that's just a fact of life.

Whatever you do, do make sure you have the best rubber you can afford... it's your life, not our insurance rates you should be concerned about, and really do question what in the world you were thinking going around a corner at 45mph in 5th gear. I almost lost a friend to a stupid stunt like that. 5th gear is for highway driving, period (the dumbass was actually going downhill... on a mountain road, in 5th... darn I wanted to kill him myself when he told me how it happened).

Alessandro

[ 12. November 2002, 13:13: Message edited by: whitemiata ]

ProstWest

12th November 2002, 19:46

Originally posted by whitemiata:
what in the world you were thinking going around a corner at 45mph in 5th gear. I almost lost a friend to a stupid stunt like that. 5th gear is for highway driving, period

AlessandroWhat good is it to have the proper tool in the toolbox if you don't know how to use it? In other words, if you haven't trained yourself to feed in throttle to balance the car when it gets loose, then it doesn't matter what gear you're in. In fact, one might speculate that a higher gear might have helped Bigmess by providing less engine braking torque at the rear wheels once he jumped off the throttle; i.e., in a lower gear the extra stress on the traction circle might have snapped the car all the way around before he even got into the catchable tank-slapper.

whitemiata

13th November 2002, 00:30

What good is it to have the proper tool in the toolbox if you don't know how to use it? In other words, if you haven't trained yourself to feed in throttle to balance the car when it gets loose, then it doesn't matter what gear you're in. In fact, one might speculate that a higher gear might have helped Bigmess by providing less engine braking torque at the rear wheels once he jumped off the throttle; i.e., in a lower gear the extra stress on the traction circle might have snapped the car all the way around before he even got into the catchable tank-slapper.He wasn't in a lower gear.

He was in 5th.

I know exactly what you're talking about, however, frankly your accurate statement reminds me of the also very accurate statements made about seat belts being a bad idea as they trap you in the car in case of a fire.

Personally, I'd trust engine braking to slow down (NOTICE SLOW DOWN, NOT STOP) my car much more than braking since given the right (well wrong anyway) conditions, even minimal braking could lead to locking and relative slides, spins etc... especially on wet, potentially unevenly wet pavement.

I stand by my statement that especially in the conditions described 5th gear was NOT the gear to be in. This was after all a mountain road, he wasn't cruising down Main Street checking out the ladies.

Certainly I wouldn't reccomend downshifting in the middle of a curve (not in those conditions anyway), but I've never experienced locking and consequential loss of traction caused by engine brake while staying in a lower more appropriate gear. I have, on the other hand experienced loss of traction due to needing to touch the brakes (due to being in too high a gear, and not being able to just use engine braking) and loss of handling performance due to the looseness you experience when you're in too high a gear for the situation. I'm afraid I don't know the proper word for that, but if you've experienced you know exactly what I'm talking about, and you know that it wouldn't have happened at the same exact speed, one (or two) gears lower.

Alessandro

bigmess

14th November 2002, 21:44

Paul_Pfluger

14th November 2002, 22:20

MarinerSteve

14th November 2002, 22:52

Second day I got mine it rained out. I was delivering for my job this night. I made a left into the parking lot of the shopping complex in second gear and gave it a little gas the car nearly turned side ways on me. This is my forst RWD car, being that im only 17. Since that day I have had alot of fun in the wet weather since i have pretty much learned to control the spin. After driving this car I will never go back to a FWD car again.

Steve

Pepe Le Pew

15th November 2002, 14:21

kdeleon

15th November 2002, 14:24

both feet in means:

your left foot on clutch and your right on the brake pedal :) .

just a racing term when something goes beyond saving. i've used it alot!

Mr Ed

15th November 2002, 15:55

Gibson99

15th November 2002, 22:00

Originally posted by bigmess:
New Information...
I was down to look at the car today, and the left rear is still on the wheel but completely off the rim. Since I landed upside down, I don't see that happening on impact. May have had a blowout. I'll get back down there in a couple days and look more carefully.it's not THAT hard to break the bead of a tire using the motion of a vehicle. a curb, a tree root, or just about any other fixed object about 2-4 inches tall will do it for you if your wheel is sliding sideways towards it, regardless of if you're throwing the rear out in a skid, or plowing with the wheel turned to the stop.

look for impact/scrape marks on the sidewall of that tire (both sides, since you went off the pavement - something could have broken the bead from the inside, though that's much more difficult to do than to break the outer bead - watch someone mount a tire and you'll know why).

i've never heard of a blowout in the rain unless you ran something over that cut the tire wide open. you would have noticed a pretty hefty bump before all the sliding started if that's what happened, but if i remmeber right (been a few days since i read your first post), you didn't mention anything like that. most blowouts on the highway are caused by overheating of hte tire, which is almost always brought on by improper tire pressure (usually low press, but can be caused by high pressure too). it can also be caused by a bad alignment, which is causing a tire to scrub and thus get hot. but the rain quickly takes away any overheating that may be going on in the tire. so i'd have to vote for either you ran something over, or caught something on the way down the side of the mountain, to break the bead of hte tire.

so unless you had some firestone wilderness AT 15" tires as part of your mismatched set, there's probably no reason it just spontaneously blew out.

l7s4

17th November 2002, 12:48

Bezor

17th November 2002, 17:09

Post-crash analysis: The best form of bench racing there is.

There were some really good opinions on why this happened, the one I'm sticking with is counter-intuative and that's keeping your foot in it when you begin to spin. It takes big balls to override your brain when you are at that point, I've been there a few times. But, the only full on non-coverable spin I did was while autocrossing.

I've had several tail-out events and actually look forward to them. One time I was entering a 90 degree turn on the inside of a four lane road which was also wet. A Camaro was beside me and I braked hard at the last moment, hung the tail out slightly, counter-steered and watched in my rearview as the Camaro made a very gracefully slow 180.

I hope you recover from your injuries with no lasting effects physically or mentally. Get another Miata, put on some good tires and enjoy the benefits of what a short wheelbase, and 50/50 weight distribution can give you. ;)

Eric Schwarzentraub
'91 Silver

[ 17. November 2002, 16:31: Message edited by: Bezoar ]

TetsuoMX5

17th November 2002, 19:08

So l7s4 says his 90 Miata is downright dangerous in slick, wet conditions. I have a class win trophy for the local BMW club ice racing series (autocross on a frozen lake) - which I drove in my 90 Miata. :) Hakka NRW tires, and I'll be the first to admit that for every run I did well, there was at least one or more where I spun at some point. But that was a safe, controlled situation - and the only time you'll see a mostly stock 90 Miata power sliding almost all the way around a course. :D If I can handle a Miata on a frozen lake, any of you should be able to handle a Miata on a wet road - except for the occasional s*** happens situation, such as wet leaves or oil slicks or land mines... The key points, which have already been raised, are tire appropriate for conditions (no Falken Azenis on snowy roads :) ), and driving within the limits of your car and yourself. To find out where these limits are, try an autocross and/or driving school.

So that means I'm some kind of slick weather Miata driving god, right? Nope. Last March, during my last session of a driving school at Lime Rock, I was exiting the Right Hander onto No Name Straight in cold, wet conditions, and suddenly the back of the car just got away from me. No tankslapper, not even any time for me to steer into it - it just snap-spun. I put both feet in (clutch and brake pedals to the floor), did a perfect 360 down the middle of the straightaway, and stopped, never leaving the pavement. All's well that ends well, but looking through my windshield back at the BMW that I was about to point-by scared the bejeezus out of me! Reminded me of my own "mortality," too, having just come off that ice racing victory.

At this past Labor Day weekend's vintage festival, I actually got to walk the track. And wouldn't you know, there's a very slight banking to the Right Hander that levels out as you enter No Name Straight...! When I drove off the banking, I looped it. And I had no idea that turn was banked at all until I walked it.

What to do when the tail kicks out depends on the severity. At autocrosses, I run with a very neutral Koni setup, and will often drift the rear very slightly through a turn, then use the throttle to settle it rather than steering. Yeah, it seems totally counterintuitive that you're sliding and you should give it MORE GAS, of all crazy things, but sometimes it works.

Other times, like my spin at Lime Rock, it all happens so fast that all you can do is damage control - either both feet in like I did, or if you're going to go off the pavement, at least try to regain enough control to DRIVE off the road, rather than spin off. The rollover may well have happened because bigmess was already spinning, hit the dirt sideways, the wheels dug themselves into the wet ground, and suddenly stopped sliding while the car kept moving - rollover. If you can at least drive it off, your chances of remaining shiny side up are much, much improved. Again, personal experience here - turn 11, NHIS, miscalculated brake fade caused me to overcook it, so I drove into the grass on the outside of the turn once I realize I was NOT getting through it at that speed. The grass helped me slow down a lot! :D

(All of the insane maneuvers described here were performed by an amateur driver on a closed course. Do not attempt on public roads, unless doing so is the only way to avoid an even worse crash. :) )

M M M M M My Miata

18th November 2002, 16:07

Bigmess,

If I'd had an accident as bad as the one you describe, I would be scared crapless to get back in a Miata and drive it very far.

I used to teach a sailing class where we recommended to students who had just capsized to "sail until the sails are dry". The reason was to make sure that the student's last memories of sailing were not the scary, out of control feelings of the capsize/crash. Often, if a student capsized and just "quit for the day", we never saw them again. The bad experience and their fears of repeating the experience would turn them off to sailing forever. However, students that "sail them dry", were still afraid of repeating the capsize but usually continued to sail. In fact, most used their experience to learn how their misjudgment of the conditions and improper reactions caused the capsize in the first place. Once they had learned these lessons, they had new incentives to learn even more and usually became very competent sailors.

I hope that you "get back on the horse" or "sail them dry" and get back in a Miata or RWD car very soon. The longer you wait the harder it will be to learn from your experience. I also join everybody else in recommending a drivers course. There is nothing like sliding a car in a controlled situation to ease fears, regain confidence, and learn from experience. :)