Learning to live with Toyo T1-S [Archive] (2024)

Loren

1st June 2004, 17:52

Okay, so I've been driving on "cutting edge" performance street tires for quite a few years now. Everything from Yok AVSi to Pirelli P-Zero to more recently Potenza S-03 and Eagle F1. I'm used to grippy tires with crisp steering response, short tread life, harsh ride, road noise... all that good stuff.

Last week I bolted on a new set of 14" wheels with 195/55-14 Toyo T1-S. I've been running them at 32 PSI. This wheel/tire combination is 7 pounds lighter than what I had on the car before, and I quickly came to terms with that. (cool stuff!) Now I'm trying to figure out the tires.

The turn-in doesn't bother me, I think I've calibrated myself to it already. I sort of like it. You start turning in a little earlier and the whole turn-in is smoother. Nice.

The curious thing... I haven't autocrossed on these tires yet, but there's a neat little "slalom" type of thing I hit on the way home sometimes. It's right off of a left turn at a stop light, so I often catch it with no one in front of me. :D You go flat out from the left turn, make a slight right, and then back to the left. (not to worry, all of the possible side entrances to this sequence are clearly visible from the starting point)

Hard transitions feel just plain weird with these tires! What it feels like, and probably is, is the car is continuing to yaw in the first direction it was turned as you yank it back in the other direction. With as much sidewall as these 14's have and as soft as the T1-S sidewalls are, I expect there's probably well over an inch of lateral play in the whole car in such a situation and that's what I'm feeling. It's another of those things I guess I'll get used to in time, I'm just wondering if anyone else has felt this.

Would raising the tire pressures help it any? Given my rather agressive driving style, would raising the pressures be likely to cause undue center tread wear on these tires?

I can definitely see how people could have a distaste for these tires, but I'm trying to appreciate their good qualities (which are very good) and adapt to their less endearing qualities.

paulk

1st June 2004, 18:02

Please pardon my total lack of experience with performance tires, but is it possible that the "turn-in" characteristic of the Toyos is due to the tread compound as much or more than the sidewalls?

As a follow-up question, how does the "turn-in" of the T1-S compare to a decent all-season tire? This is a selfish question as I'm contemplating that move.

And also, a related question - if it is the sidewalls, would the 15" mitigate the flex somewhat?

LeGreatOne

1st June 2004, 18:06

I too have noted the slow response, but you get used to that. As an example, today I was driving home from work, and on one stretch of highway I was behind a work van with no rear window and surprise of surprises, no working brake lights!
Traffic was moving quickly, passing lane, no reason to move right to attempt to pass him...
Anyway the van suddenly STOPPED - remember, no brake lights and no rear window in the van, so I couldn't tell the van was stopping until I was almost upon it!
I twitched the wheel just in time and went around the van with inches to spare.
If this happened on the first day or two that I had the Toyos, I probably would be a bumper hitch on that van right now.
The Toyos take some getting used to...
But when balanced correctly they seem to ride very well, and I welcome the heavier steering effort. On the other hand, S03s react much quicker to directional changes, but don't ride as well on rougher pavement.

[ 01. June 2004, 18:15: Message edited by: LeGreatOne ]

sausage king

1st June 2004, 18:21

drop 'em to 29 for street and get 2k to 3k miles more outa them.

aLLen ( on my second set of 195/55/14s )

Loren

1st June 2004, 18:26

Originally posted by paulk:
Please pardon my total lack of experience with performance tires, but is it possible that the "turn-in" characteristic of the Toyos is due to the tread compound as much or more than the sidewalls?The Toyo T1-S is well-known for it's "mushy" turn-in. Otherwise, it seems to be an excellent performance tire. The compound is very sticky. There is some validity in your thought, however. These are full-tread new tires, so there's almost 1/2" of tread to squirm betwen the tire carcass and the road. I'm sure these tires will get a little crisper as they wear. (and the way I drive, they'll be at half-tread in 4-6 months)

As a follow-up question, how does the "turn-in" of the T1-S compare to a decent all-season tire? This is a selfish question as I'm contemplating that move.Honestly, I think a lot of "performance all-season" tires would have better turn-in characteristics, but it would be at the expense of ride quality, and no all-season tire is going to grip this good. The junk 185/60-14's (http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=009299) that I had on the car for a couple weeks before making this last switch turned in better than the T1-S... but they had NO grip at all.

And also, a related question - if it is the sidewalls, would the 15" mitigate the flex somewhat?Yes. I moved back down to 14's to save weight (http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=009213). If you want 15's, I think the Goodyear F1's are the way to go at present unless you want the smooth ride that the Toyo's offer.

Swampy

1st June 2004, 18:29

Loren,

One thing you'll notice performance wise about the T1-S is that if you've been using tires with a stiff sidewall, like the S03 or Azenis, you'll never be able to compensate with a higher pressure.

When I bought my Miata used it had a set of T1-S's (195/55/14) and after playing with the tire pressures for weeks I decided that they had to go - even though they had 7/32" left. They ended up on a riced out Honda somewhere....

Phil W

1st June 2004, 18:55

I had the same experience when I first got my T1-S's. I got the car re-aligned with more neg camber and less toe-in. The car feels a lot better now.

P.

Loren

1st June 2004, 19:08

I do have an alignment in my future. I'm at near zero toe now, so less toe-in would have to be a smidgen of toe-out. More camber I can do. Was considering that, anyway.

Good to know that tire pressures aren't going to help. I guess I'll leave them where they are, or perhaps do as suggested and lower them a bit, I don't expect it will make much difference in the way they feel.

Haven't noticed any tread rollover yet. Will I see that in the autox/track environment, or will they behave well without raising the pressures?

fastmike

1st June 2004, 19:23

socal pat

1st June 2004, 19:59

The T1s was my first experience with a high performance tire. Compared to the all season and noname tires I had before they were great. One day a sidewall just blew out on the freeway. They were 3/4 worn by that time so I needed 4 new ones. Well I've been running Azenis for the last year and there is no comparison in dry stick and turn-in response.

So I do sometimes miss the comfort and quiet of the Toyos, but not enough to give up the all out stick of a real performance street tire. Hell, if Toyo made the Ra1 in a decent 14" size I'd be driving on them.

Mica

1st June 2004, 21:57

Billy

1st June 2004, 21:58

Loren, I can recommend 28-29 on the street and enjoy the ride. Also enjoy the deep water ride if it ever rains again. You may find you have more tire than brake ability in the deep stuff!

I only ran 2 autox on mine, and certainly did not know much then (or now for that matter) I never hit what I felt was a sweet spot on pressures. One event was almost 100 on track, the next was our watercross. In fact, on the hot event, you rode with me and commented, 'you seem to be doing about all the tires and OE suspension will allow'

However, I did not experience tread rollover.

I'd take a guess and say start at 38/36 and see what you think.

I'd also suggest some initial caution at Primus. I acutally think you'll find the big S and big sweeper to be fine, but the short esses might make you a bit giddy, both from your looser suspension and new tires.

It'll be interesting to see your thoughts on the wt for autox results, vs grip. I wonder if you'll wind up with autox rims/tires and enjoy the new setup for street........

[ 01. June 2004, 22:04: Message edited by: Billy Young, aka toyluvr ]

Loren

1st June 2004, 23:03

I'm far too lazy to swap tires for a weekend autocross. If these tires don't suit me, I'll just wear them out and get something different. Or if they REALLY don't suit me, I'll dismount them and offer them up for someone else who might like them better than I do.

Was looking at Kumho ECSTAs a while ago... pretty cheap in 14" sizes... am I crazy enough to run those on the street? :)

I also wonder what the 195/45-14 T1-S would be like... another 2 pounds lighter... could you imagine a 21 pound wheel/tire combo??? Less sidewall would surely handle better, and less weight/smaller diameter would help acceleration. I think they'd look too tiny in the wheel well, though. (could always lower the car more...)

Somebody stop me before I start thinking about doing the 1.6 brake "lightness upgrade"... ;)

miata85_03

1st June 2004, 23:18

Do you have any pics up of the new rims yet?

Kevin

Don

1st June 2004, 23:46

Originally posted by Loren '96R:

Last week I bolted on a new set of 14" wheels with 195/55-14 Toyo T1-S. I've been running them at 32 PSI. This wheel/tire combination is 7 pounds lighter than what I had on the car before, and I quickly came to terms with that. (cool stuff!)Elaborate on your impressions a little more please

I went from a 28 pound combo down to a 26 pound combo when I bolted the BBS's on your 'photo car' - Both sets had identical 195/55-14 RE-71's, so the only difference I noted was the reduction in weight - I DID notice a heck of a difference when I took 4 pounds per corner off my Protege 5 - Also experienced some of the improved ride comfort you're describing as I went from 195/50-16 to 205/55-15 to keep the overall circumference of the tires the same

You're sorting out a 7 pound difference and a much different tire, but I was wondering what your impressions of just the added 'lightness' are - Assuming you can sort out that from the new tires??

My experience is that the greatest improvement is when I really press the car in corners over bad pavement - We have a freeway exit ramp near here with a 'Tee' intersection at the bottom and the asphault in the intersection is very irregular - Not exactly broken up, but sort of 'washed out' if you know what I mean (I hope they NEVER repave it ;) ) and the suspension works so much better over the irregular pavement with the lighter wheels, you can add 5 MPH or more to your corner speeds easily and really 'feel' the added grip

I suspect that once you get used to a sub 25 pound combo with decent tires, it will be hard to live with anything else from here on out ;)

Don

Lanny Chambers

2nd June 2004, 00:14

1. They will improve with a few hundred miles to wear into the alignment.

2. The best street pressure is 28-29 psi. There's no advantage to using more. The ride difference between 32 and 28 will surprise you, and you'll get more grip as well.

3. 195/50-15 feels exactly the same to me as 195/55-14. My wheels weigh 12 lb each.

4. I'm running 28 psi, -1.2F/-1.75R camber, and can slide them at 70 mph without tread rollover. No more than 3/8" of tread shoulder is scuffed at all.

5. You will get used to them. They'll work better as you become smoother and anticipate your moves earlier.

Yesterday, after a week of awful storms, we went for a long drive in the Ozarks. The pavement has finally warmed up, and the rain has finally washed the salt, sand, and mud off the roads. The magic is back! I overcooked one corner entry by a good 5 mph, and the Toyos simply slid about 3 inches and gripped, scrubbing off enough speed to get me back inside the slip angle envelope. No drama, no unplanned rotation, no throttle lift required. Probably wouldn't work on a boosted Miata, but the stock 1.8 doesn't have enough beans to overpower a T-1S in its temperature sweet spot.

Oh, there was still plenty of freeze-damaged broken pavement. But the T-1S ignores anything smaller than 2-foot potholes.

---
Lanny Chambers
the alignment page (http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html)
'94C

Loren

2nd June 2004, 09:28

Originally posted by Don:
Elaborate on your impressions a little more please

I went from a 28 pound combo down to a 26 pound combo when I bolted the BBS's on your 'photo car' - Don, I was trying to focus on the actual tires in this thread, but I think my questions have been sufficiently answered already... so we'll migrate to the weight issue. :)

YES! The difference is night and day. The first thing I noticed was the steering effort (manual rack, of course) was much lighter. Lighter and more precise in spite of the spongy T1-S sidewalls.

Yes, the ride is MUCH smoother. Some of that is due to the tires, but I know that shedding 7 pounds of unsprung weight has made it easier for the suspension to do its job.

Acceleration feels quicker, though I have yet to verify it with the G-tech. First gear doesn't feel all that different, but 2nd and 3rd do... especially a good 2nd gear pull. Accelerating from low RPM in any gear (ie lugging 4th in traffic) is much easier.

Braking... I'm still working on feeling that one out. (don't use the brakes much, hehe) It seems that stops from below 40 are almost effortless. If I use the same force that I did before, the car stops RIGHT NOW. And I'm putting on a set of Axxis Ultimates this weekend... I'm sure that will make things that much different.

Yes, even after only driving on them for a few days and less than half-tank of gas, I have a great appreciation for my lightweight Volks and feel that it was money well spent.

PS: Thanks for 'allowing me' to use your photo, it was helpful in the decision making process. Here are some pictures I took as I was installing the new wheels last Friday: Volk Pix (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/shad/Cars/Volk/). You might notice that the ones on my car are the 8-spoke design rather than the 10-spoke that I hacked onto your photo. The 14's are only available in 8-spoke, but I couldn't find a picture of that design.

PPS: Curious side-effect of light wheels - I stalled the car for the first time in a very long time the other day. I was coming up to a light and made a "California stop" before my right turn, no traffic around. Not enough momentum for the speed at which I let the clutch out! Sort of the same thing that happens to people when they put a light flywheel on. It's only happened that once, though.

Loren

2nd June 2004, 09:34

Originally posted by Lanny Chambers:
1. They will improve with a few hundred miles to wear into the alignment.

2. The best street pressure is 28-29 psi. There's no advantage to using more. The ride difference between 32 and 28 will surprise you, and you'll get more grip as well.

3. 195/50-15 feels exactly the same to me as 195/55-14. My wheels weigh 12 lb each.

4. I'm running 28 psi, -1.2F/-1.75R camber, and can slide them at 70 mph without tread rollover. No more than 3/8" of tread shoulder is scuffed at all.

5. You will get used to them. They'll work better as you become smoother and anticipate your moves earlier.Excellent info, as always, Lanny. I'll try bumping the pressures down a bit and be patient with them. I am already learning to anticipate my turns a little more. I've always been a fairly smooth driver.

Is it time to go to work yet? :)

samueh01

2nd June 2004, 19:01

Loren

2nd June 2004, 19:17

Personally, I like having 4 matched tires. Easier to rotate them that way. I wouldn't mis-match them unless I had a power issue and needed wider tires in the rear... but I don't see that in my future.

I guess doing what you suggest would improve turn-in, and would otherwise have similar effects to softening the rear springs vs the front springs. The car would hook up better accelerating out of a turn, but might have more tendency toward understeer.

Let us know how it works when you try it. :)

Don

2nd June 2004, 23:12

While I'm a big fan of smaller, lighter weight tires I'd personally never consider either of the 195/45's for my car - I drive it too hard for either of those to be safe

The Miata requires a tire load rated 82 minimum and the 195/45-14's are only rated 77 and the 195/45-15's are just 78 - Both considerably below what Mazda recommends

Don

clayfeet

3rd June 2004, 06:24

The Toyo T1-S is well-known for it's "mushy" turn-in. would a bit of front toe-out help?

alignment specs (http://www.racerwebs.com/alignment)

Lanny Chambers

3rd June 2004, 14:44

Not really. If anything, extreme toe in might help preload the outside sidewall, but that assumes the car is going in a perfectly straight line just before turn in. It also assumes that turn in is more important than grip, general responsiveness, or wear. Fat chance.

Just get used to it. After an hour, most drivers adapt and stop noticing.

---
Lanny Chambers
the alignment page (http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html)
'94C

Loren

3rd June 2004, 14:58

I think I've finally pinpointed what I don't like about the T1-S. (I lowered the pressures to 29 this morning, btw... couldn't really notice a difference from 32) And I may yet adapt to it. Understanding it is certainly a step in the right direction.

It's not the turn-in. That was easy to adjust to. It's more the "turn out". Let's say you make a quick lane change. If you've got a soft stockish suspension, you probably get a little body roll in that situation and are used to the fraction of a second that it takes for the car to "settle" after doing that.

I've been driving on a stiff suspension and stiff tires for several years and I'm NOT used to feeling the car doing ANYTHING after I make a maneuver. I'm used to instant reaction. It does what I told it to do and it's done. The Toyo's add a lot of compliance to that. Now when I make a hard lane change (or similar), there is a little bobble afterward, and it's all in the tires.

I know it's not "bad". The car is very well connected to the road and I'm confident in that. In fact, it's probably "good" because it smooths out the shock of asking the contact patch to make such a quick move. It just feels "unsettled" compared to what I'm used to.

Time will tell if I can adapt to it or not.

Lanny Chambers

4th June 2004, 01:37

Just ignore it and maintain your throttle setting. The tires will take care of it themselves. If you try to apply a steering "correction," you'll risk breaking grip.

Aim for total smoothness. Unwind the steering wheel deliberately, rather than snapping it back to center or letting it center itself. Good habit to get into, regardless of the tire, and something track instructors always harp about.

---
Lanny Chambers
the alignment page (http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html)
'94C

paulk

4th June 2004, 07:46

Loren

4th June 2004, 09:25

Originally posted by Lanny Chambers:
Just ignore it and maintain your throttle setting. The tires will take care of it themselves. If you try to apply a steering "correction," you'll risk breaking grip.Oh, I don't try to correct for it. It's just a "different" feeling.

Aim for total smoothness. Unwind the steering wheel deliberately, rather than snapping it back to center or letting it center itself. Good habit to get into, regardless of the tire, and something track instructors always harp about.Funny you should mention that. Our club has started doing small "driving school" events at a small test track in our area, and I found myself in one of the instructor positions back in March. (not because I really feel qualified, but because I was one of the few people who knew the track and we didn't get enough experienced volunteer instructors) That is definitely one of the things I harped on people about! I tried to make it easy for them to remember: "Steer in, Steer out!"

More curious Toyo stuff... I'm not sure if I just wasn't in my groove on the way home last night, or if lowering the pressures actually had more of an effect than I first though. I have a nice scenic 2-lane road that I drive home on with a few good curves in it. I kept noticing last night that I was taking most of those turns wider than normal. It seems that less tire pressure may be requiring more steering input. Interesting.

I've also noticed that these tires do emit a light squeal at much lower cornering speeds than the S-03's or the F1's did. I guess that's good for a street tire, though. Lots of warning.

The Angle

4th June 2004, 15:12

I have Toyos on the car, now, too, and so far I love 'em. I'm curious, though -- do softer sidewalls equate to greater slip angles? Logic says they should but I haven't had an opportunity to really test that theory yet.

Steve

Lanny Chambers

4th June 2004, 23:37

No. Once the T-1S is loaded laterally, its slip angle is as small as any other performance tire, otherwise it would slide instead of sticking so well. Its belt is what makes it feel different, not its sidewalls: the belt is soft on the sides, but very stiff in the center. Read about it on the Toyo website.

---
Lanny Chambers
the alignment page (http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html)
'94C

Loren

7th June 2004, 21:55

Well, in the quest for how to live with these tires, I first tried 32 psi. Mushy, but not hideously bad. Multiple suggestions to try 28-29 psi here prompted me to try 29 for a couple days. Hated it.

Then I did a search of the autocross forum and found that several people who autocross on these tires tried various high and low pressures and settled on 36-38 psi. So I tried 38f/36r. Bingo!

I now like these tires. They feel good, they grip well, and they're still pretty comfortable. (about as comfortable as my 3x stiffer than stock springs will allow them to be)

My car feels "happy" again.

MeOughtta

8th June 2004, 10:55

I've had T-1s for years and never tried that high. I get relatively even wear (depending on the camber in my alignment and the amount of high-speed cornering I'm doing) running 33 front and 31 rear. Also, no problem with roll-over at those pressures.

I'll be interested to learn if the extra 5 pounds of pressure creates a wear pattern corresponding to over-inflation.

Martin.

I'll also try these settings next time I stick air in 'em!

Mr.Woolery

8th June 2004, 14:26

So far I've been pretty happy with my T1's...I switched to the Toyo's from Yoko tires a couple of years back and have been very satisfied with their performance since. True, I did have to deal with the mushy turn in issue initially, but I really consider it to have been a positive experience overall. I'm sure that I wouldn't appreciate the "mushy" aspect of the tire if it were a higher profile (45, 50 series) tire. However, the 40 series T1-S minimizes the mushiness while still maintaining grip. I just drive a little smoother, and garner cornering speed that way. Nowadays I don't even notice the mushiness at all.

Basically I'd put it this way--until the Falken Azenis or Yokohama Advan's come out in my size (215/40/16), the Toyo's are "it" for me.

Loren

8th June 2004, 15:09

I may end up dropping the pressures down to around 34 or so. Probably not all the way back down to 32, though. (and definitely not 29)

These are a 55 series tire, and it's the non-reinforced sidewall version of the tire. Plenty of mush to be had.

I'll be sure to post wear characteristics as time and miles (and autocrosses and track events) go by.

IKIGAI

9th June 2004, 18:47

Last week I bolted on a new set of 14" wheels with 195/55-14 Toyo T1-S New to the tire forum but I am in the market...

Loren, which speed rating did you buy? Perhaps answering my own first question here:

http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_specsheet.cfm?id=2

are you talking about the 195/55R14 82V?

Not to hijack but Question two is, based on the posts it sounds like the TS-1 is a good "compromise" ("comfort" vs. "performance") street performance tire that sounds (from the Toyo website) like it can handle rain? FWIW I would run the Toyos on a stock '91 B Package w/ stock alloys if all y'all think that sounds like the ticket...

Sorry if the question has been addressed or is "stupid" :)

Mica

9th June 2004, 20:31

warpdrive

9th June 2004, 23:15

Loren

10th June 2004, 12:17

Originally posted by GOES211:
Loren, which speed rating did you buy? Perhaps answering my own first question here:

http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_specsheet.cfm?id=2

are you talking about the 195/55R14 82V?Yep, those are the ones.

Not to hijack but Question two is, based on the posts it sounds like the TS-1 is a good "compromise" ("comfort" vs. "performance") street performance tire that sounds (from the Toyo website) like it can handle rain? FWIW I would run the Toyos on a stock '91 B Package w/ stock alloys if all y'all think that sounds like the ticket...

Sorry if the question has been addressed or is "stupid" :) Not a stupid question, though it's probably been addressed before. (search for "T1-S", lots of opinions out there)

I think if you're not used to the ultra-sharp response of the typical "ultra high performance" tire (Potenza S-03, Goodyear F1, etc), these tires are a great compromise between performance and comfort. In fact, the performance is not compromised at all, and neither is the comfort. As mentioned above, it's just the "feel" that is lacking in these tires. If you've been driving on all-season or other "lesser" tires, you'll probably LOVE these tires as they will feel about the same, but grip WAY better.

MX-Brad

10th June 2004, 19:39

OceanRagtop

10th June 2004, 22:01

Originally posted by MX-Brad:
What kind of milage do you think is possible with the Toyo's under average to moderately aggressive daily driving? Almost certainly not more than 20Kmi and perhaps as little as 12-14Kmi depending on much ... including the roads you drive on, what your level of "moderate" aggressiveness means, your driving style, etc.

Data point: Across six sets doing mostly double-duty of daily driving, autocross and occasional track days, I averaged ~14Kmi per set. Driven hard, driven everywhere.

----------------------------------------------
My 96M, Li'l Bit (http://miata.cardomain.com/id/oceanragtop) .
Keep the shiny side up.
Redwood Coast Miata Club (http://rcmiataclub.tripod.com)

MX-Brad

10th June 2004, 23:44

Loren

11th June 2004, 08:13

Lanny Chambers

11th June 2004, 13:45

Two years? TWO YEARS??! Somebody's getting TWO YEARS out of a T-1S?

Must be a garage queen...one of those '90s with 20k miles on it.

---
Lanny Chambers
the alignment page (http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html)
'94C

Loren

11th June 2004, 14:11

Originally posted by Lanny Chambers:
Two years? TWO YEARS??! Somebody's getting TWO YEARS out of a T-1S?

Must be a garage queen...one of those '90s with 20k miles on it.
That, or they just aren't having enough fun! ;)

Chuck75

13th June 2004, 20:50

About a month after I put T1-S's
on my 99, $59ea, I drove from Florida to Georgia (I-75). There was a heck of a lot of heavy rain with crosswinds. I noticed that about a dozen cars had gone off the road in various places, evidently due to hydroplaning. I did not notice any problems, other than the usual drag when you hit a bit of standing water in the rutted concrete.

Originally posted by MX-Brad:
Good thing they're cheap then, if I'm going to have to replace every other year.
Fun times anyways.

Savington

14th June 2004, 11:30

Loren, I've got a question about your car. On the Hopup racing website, they show the Volk CE28-N as a 10-spoke rim, but I've got a pic of your car on the CE28-N you bought as an 8-spoke rim. What does it actually look like?

http://www.hopupracing.com/volkce28n.html

Loren

14th June 2004, 15:46

Yeah, the larger sizes are 10-spoke, so that's what you'll see on most of the websites. I think 15's can be had in either 10 or 8 spoke. The 14's are all 8 spoke.

This might help:
http://www.rayswheels.co.jp/indexe.html

Loren

12th July 2004, 12:56

Thought I'd dredge this topic back up since I'm still trying to figure it out.

I've been running with the Toyos at about 34 psi for a while now and have gotten comfortable with them. Only real complaint now is that they whine a bit when pushed, and will emit a healthy chirp in first and second if I'm rough.

But I went to the dragstrip (off topic: First time ever at a dragstrip, pulled pretty consistent 16.2's and a best of 16.185) Friday night and lowered the rear pressures for that. I dropped them to 28 and left the fronts at 34. Haven't gotten around to resetting the pressures yet, just been driving around with 34/28.

I'm wondering if anyone else has tried such an odd tire pressure combination on a Miata with these or similar tires. So far, I kinda like it. The back end feels more planted when cornering, but having 34 in the front still takes care of the turn-in issue. Haven't really driven this way enough to tell if the noise characteristics are any different.

I'm thinking I could probably go with something like 32/29 and be a little closer to "normal" with the front/rear spread.

Loren

24th July 2004, 23:10

Still more thoughts on the T1-S...

Autocrossed on them for the first time today. Started with high pressures, 38 front and 34 rear. My first run felt really wild and out of control, mondo oversteer AND understeer, the tires just wouldn't do what I asked them to. (oddly enough, that ended up being my fastest run, but all of my runs were within about .5 seconds and many within about .1 of that best one) So, I lowered the pressures looking for grip. Ended up with 33 front and 31 rear. The car felt more hooked up with that (and they weren't rolling over TOO much, but close), but I still had oversteer issues and couldn't put the power down.

So I stiffened my front shocks a bit, that helped. Was running out of adjustment on the front shocks, so I opted to soften the rear shocks a touch. Problem solved.

The car felt great after that, very balanced and happy, but the grip just was not there. I was just about to conclude that the T1-S was just plain not the tire for me after my last run (we did 8 runs today, woohoo!) when I remembered that I recently installed the Ground Control kit and raised the car about an inch... and I haven't had the car aligned yet. I'm running with minimal (by my standards) camber and questionable toe. Surely there is something to be gained from fixing that.

So, the jury is still out. I presume that the T1-S will respond to judicious amounts of camber and give me somewhat better autocross grip. I think I've gotten used to the turn-in characteristics.

The car felt awesome on the way home. The combination of tire pressure and shock settings I have now are great! I think I may finally have the tires fully scrubbed-in now, they don't seem to be squealing at me as much as they were. Nothing like a good autocross to scrub in your tires!

Wish I didn't have to wait for my FM shock mounts before getting an alignment.

Footnote:
The ONLY thing on my car that has changed since the last time I autocrossed is the tires and wheels. I ran with this suspension/ride height/alignment configuration at the last one with my Eagle F1's without the issues I had with the T1-S today. I'm not convinced that the T1-S is junk, but I am definitely convinced that that F1 is a much better tire. Too bad they don't make them in 14's. (yeah, I know... I can get Azenis in 14"... and I might end up there)

Bama

25th July 2004, 08:01

Loren

29th August 2004, 22:55

Hmmm... another month gone by.

I've learned to really like the T1-S as a street tire. So much so that I bought a set to replace the 3-year-old bricks on my wife's car. But, as noted previously, they DID take some getting used to. Oddly enough, they feel right at home on my wife's Saturn. They just flat out GRIP on her car and all of the negatives (sluggish turn-in, squealing, whatever) don't seem to be a problem at all. Of course, my wife doesn't care. <sigh>

Anyway... since my last update where I first autocrossed on these tires and tweaked their tire pressures, I have autocrossed again twice. Once last weekend, and once today. Once on asphalt and once on concrete. I have made no changes to tire pressure (or shock settings) since I found an acceptable balance at that first autox.

Last weekend's autocross was somewhat of a disappointment for me. I thought I was doing okay, though I knew I left some time out on course and knew of at least two places specifically that I could have braked less and shaved some time. But I was really surprised to find myself a good 2 seconds off of the Azenis guys on a 40-second course. Bah!

So, today I decided to push the car a little harder (still haven't spun with these tires). I managed to have some huge fun and turn some respectable times... but still over 3 seconds off of the Falken guys (60-second course). I felt better about my driving today and honestly don't think I could have squeezed more than about half a second out of the tires. They were right on the edge everywhere they could be.

BUT... I did learn something about the T1-S today. I sort of figured out HOW to be fast on them. Today's course was really heavy on transitions, which I think the T1-S is rather awkward at. I figured out that if you attempt to drive them like a "typical" performance tire, you turn in where you think you should (maybe even anticipate a bit because you know these tires don't turn-in) and you don't feel response, so you turn in some more... and you quickly OVERDRIVE the tire. The trick is to (oh, get ready for it... you've seen these words before... ) turn earlier and less (http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001692#000000). I mean WAY earlier. Once I found that groove and started turning in early enough consistently (which was really difficult on this particular course, but very rewarding), I improved my time 2 seconds.

I still don't like the T1-S for autocross. The Azenis is looking more appealing to me, in spite of the weight penalty. I've even been pondering buying a set of RA-1's for all-purpose use. Hmmm...